An Interview With Bruce Lee Historian Paul Bax

Paul Bax has interacted with and interviewed many of Bruce Lee’s original students and unearthed a wealth of information, personal and technical. Here he discusses his book, Disciples of the Dragon – Recollections from the students of Bruce Lee.

What sparked your interest in Bruce Lee?

Bax: The year was 1983 and I was visiting a former girlfriend’s (Melissa) house with a friend and the movie, The Chinese Connection came on.  I had already heard of Bruce Lee but could never figure out what all the hype was about.  This movie changed all that.  I was on the path of discovering everything I possibly could about the late Bruce Lee and his art of Jeet Kune Do (and for you voyeurs, nothing happened with the ex-girlfriend).  I was currently a student of Tae Kwon Do under the late Charles Roth.  I had no doubt Sensei Roth was a tough man (especially when he cupped both his hands and slapped my ears when I would not let go of a grab) but as with most TKD classes, we were all just following the motions and basically were being trained as “wanna be killers”.  When you stick 30 people on a basketball court and teach forms with occasional sparring, you can’t expect much.  Why was it though that Sensei Roth had such a deep disdain for Bruce Lee?  I would ask questions and the answers were blunt and normally ended up with the same answer, “You cannot find a school anywhere that will teach you Bruce Lee’s art!”  Hmm.  So, I started delving deeper into whatever information was available about Lee’s art, which inevitably started with books and magazines.   Later, I followed that up with every video release available but more importantly, seminar videos of various JKD people teaching the art.

Was your training at this point merely a mix and match of martial arts or were you aware of your instructor’s intent to relay JKD/Concepts? Or did this come from the re-emergence of ‘original JKD’ in the media?

Bax: Remember, I was training in Okinawa-Te at the time, which is what I earned my Black Belt in.  At the time, all anyone really knew about JKD was what was fed: JKD Concepts. I noticed a lot of discrepancies as to what was originally portrayed as JKD while Lee was alive and shortly after his death and then the information changed shortly afterwards.  So while we followed what most thought was JKD at the time, in the back of our minds we had this six sense that there was something more.  Or should I say less? Original JKD hit the scene in the form of videos’ from Poteet, Davis and several others.  My instructor was more of a coach/trainer.  Everything was informal working out at his house or in parks or at our normal school (the Okinawa-Te school) during “open practice”.  A lot of the times I would get a video and I would pass it on to and he would break it down. Of course it’s always better to experience things in person rather then just watching.  Ironically, I acquired a lot of rare video back then of guys like Paul De’Thouars doing private seminars that probably a lot of Silat guys would die for.  This is not the same stuff you would buy out of a magazine.  Being in Missouri, we did not have a lot of JKD choices although the California Martial Arts Academy had a school here at one time but of course it was the JKD Concepts crowd.  All such schools in Missouri have closed down altogether (as far as I know). In essence, with “The Tao Of Jeet Kune Do” in our hands, common sense, and insights from other Lee students other then the professed “elders” of JKD, we felt we had a grasp on what JKD as Lee taught the art really was.   By no means did we have all the answers though.   We never may.

Bruce Lee Review: What’s your background in martial arts training?

Paul Bax: I began training in Tae Kwon Do in 1982 and stuck with it until I was tired of doing katas’ in a basketball court. I did enjoy the sparring though. After that I pretty much did my own thing until I heard rave reviews about an Okinawa-Te instructor so I began training with him in 1986. The school was sort of a hub for martial artist from different styles so we had a lot of different guys from different arts stopping in and that is where I met my friend and instructor, Kym Huie. Kym had fought full contact and was a bouncer most of his life so he had a wonderful grasp on what worked in the street and he always was learning from whatever source that he could. He was a fan of the concepts approach and quite frankly, that is all there really was from what I remember back then until certain guys started coming out in magazines with the underground term, ‘Original Jeet Kune Do’. But, he and I had both read The Tao Of Jeet Kune Do so we had a grasp on what Lee was into while alive but were somewhat confused as to what people were proposing JKD was, i.e. JKD Concepts.

Bruce Lee Review: You mentioned the Tao of Jeet Kune Do there, a misnomer in itself, surely? In my time as a fan, this book has been derided for being less than representative of what Bruce Lee was doing, and having been published posthumously, fell foul of the fact that it’s ‘author’ was deceased. Having finite experience in martial arts I was able to appreciate elements of the book but I didn’t get a broader sense of its direction and it really came across as a hodgepodge of private notes that might never have been published in this format had Bruce Lee lived, even attracting litigious attention in some quarters for misattribution of quotes and diagrams that Bruce Lee found interest in. How can a ‘way’ be applied to a man’s vision that supposedly has ‘no way’?

Paul Bax:  Ah, there’s that double-edged sword of JKD rearing its ugly head again: “way of no way”; “circle of no circumference”; “limitation without limitation”.   I believe Bruce Lee was the ultimate salesman for a product that he really never intended to fully sell…at least as a martial art.  Lee once told Taky Kimura that he travelled all the way across town to drink root beer because the one particular store served the drink in a frosty mug.  Sometimes I feel that Lee was constantly trying to give his personal martial art that “frosty mug” that other arts lacked or appeared to lack.  Bruce Lee was to JKD what David Lee Roth was to Van Halen.  He was the salesman; the star that made JKD shine.   After he died we were left with a lot of humble students with no real leadership skills.  Forgive me, I am babbling.  How can a “way” be applied to a man’s vision that supposedly has no “way”?   I believe that there is an art to JKD but that art is based upon a lot of scientific principles that coincide with the structure of the human body and how best to make that body perform.  Lee preferred certain ways to do things based on what he felt was the simplest yet effective way to them.  Remember, Lee also called his art, “Scientific Street-Fighting.”  Of course Lee’s preferred method may not always work for the average individual.  However, if someone trained as hard as Lee and studied some of the principles behind what he professed, one surely would improve one’s self as opposed to simply venturing out to become a fighter without prior knowledge of what Lee had studied and professed. I am not claiming to have a higher knowledge of how exactly JKD should work within one’s body to create a superior way of fighting.  I am merely expressing an opinion based on my own research and from my observations of what Bruce Lee has said in interviews and wrote in his notes.

Bruce Lee Review: Is your new book a higher profile, updated edition of your first book?

Paul Bax: Yes, the new book has many new interviews with Lee’s students that include, James DeMile, Pat Strong, Steve Golden, Leo Fong, Richard Bustillo, Joe Lewis, Gary Dill (student of James Lee) and Bob Bremer.

Bruce Lee Review: How does it differ, what was the catalyst that made you want to interview so many of Bruce Lee’s students?

Paul Bax: Well, first of all I feel my interviewing skills are much better then they were before. I have matured a lot in my questions and insights and I basically am asking more intelligent questions then I used to. Years ago, there was a certain set of myths that I wanted debunked and I went in that direction. All of the interviews before were mainly done over the phone. Now with e-mail, I can be much more thorough and bounce questions off of their answers which has produced some huge interviews. The newer ones are much more well-rounded and in my opinion, my best work ever. In particular, the Joe Lewis interview really got inside his head and revealed a lot of things that I feel a lot of people wanted to know about. And then there are interviews with people whom you just don’t hear enough about like Leo Fong and Bob Bremer. What makes me want to interview so many of Lee’s students is the fact that like most fans, I am always looking for that story that we have never heard before and want other fans and practitioners to share in the new insights.

Bruce Lee Review: How did you come to write for the Bruce Lee’s estate’s Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus magazine, and how is your relationship with the estate these days?

Paul Bax: That is all sort of fuzzy but it was mostly from my friendship with John Little. John was my way in. He would call me from time to time and ask me to do an interview with so and so or write an article on a topic he wanted something on and I stepped in and did it. My relationship with the Estate is somewhat on a hiatus because we have basically lost touch. Linda used to send me Xmas cards every year (coming to an ebay auction near you) and then they just sort of dropped off. When the Nucleus was crumbling I was led to believe that it was out of greed but now that the smoke has cleared, I am not so sure. They may only have had the best intentions of Lee in mind. I am open to discussion if they are looking to try and revive the popularity of Bruce and would consider me to be a part of the ‘resurrection’.

Bruce Lee Review: Do you think that the post-Bruce Lee interpretation of Jeet Kune Do has made it the very antithesis of what he intended: liberation?

Paul Bax: The confusing part of all this is the words that Bruce Lee left behind himself. In one sentence he talks about liberation but then you have letters to former students about not combining ‘X’ (JKD) with ‘Y’ (insert art of choice but in this case, Kenpo) so you have to wonder what direction Lee was really going in. The bottom-line is the fact that Lee would probably take from any art that he felt offered something useful but in reality, how much is really left after so many thousands of years of creating moves? That’s why he talked about not having new styles, etc. As long as the body has the same four limbs as it normally has, then the emphasis shoots back towards improving the body and mechanics of how to make the moves more effective. Simplicity was always his goal. I feel in a lot of ways Bruce Lee was a proud man. He wanted to create something that would just totally devour other arts but not everyone has the dedication that he had to build the fighting machine that he was, not to mention the fact that Lee had no intention of ever letting any one he trained catch up to his level so how much was he really willing to give out?

Bruce Lee Review: Let’s talk about the confusion surrounding Jeet Kune Do; are you able to clarify what this is and where this confusion comes from? I hear this and that about ‘original’ JKD, JKD Concepts and more recently, Jun Fan Gung Fu, what does all this mean for martial arts practitioners and also for non-combatants alike, trying to get a grip on what Bruce Lee’s art is about?

Paul Bax: I think the confusion comes from the different perspectives from the various students that Bruce Lee taught over the years.  While they all may have gotten a piece of the puzzle, often these particular students feel that their piece is better then anyone else’s.